Elektron-Users

maybe they're not only bringing out an Elektron fashion line, but it's going to have leather digs. after all, what else could be a cow and a sewing machine? unless it's implying they're going to milk us with their new thingie. could that mean.. software with $120 upgrades every 9 months ala Abletone?

gah!
the latest upgrade is going to cost 100 euro + 170 euro for the sampler. not to mention 120 euro if you want the synth. which is nice, but not 120 euro nice.

I have some issues with ableton's business/marketing methods. I dont understand how they could market live 5 as 'a complete music production tool' ...without providing a synth.

a fully functional live 6 is going to cost a fortune, the same ballpark figure as logic 7.2 - even to upgrade from live 5 to a live 6 with the multi-sampler and the synth - is expensive.


390 euro :-o :-o :-o

but that's how all software "manufacturers" work -- charge for upgrades every X often. ain't nothing for free my son -- even when the so-called upgrades fix sh*t that should have worked, and the company claimed DID work, in the first place (ableton, cubase, I'm looking in your directiooon).

M

b0unce wrote:
I have some issues with ableton's business/marketing methods. I dont understand how they could market live 5 as 'a complete music production tool' ...without providing a synth.


That doesn't make any sense though! Why should a 'complete music production tool' include a synth? Ableton are no more obliged to include a free synth than they are a free banjo, tuba or whatever. You can make music in Ableton without a built-in synth, just like you can make music in Ableton without a built-in mandolin.

Of course, if you are taking "complete music production tool' to mean that you can make complete tracks in Live without recording anything or using outside samples, then you are right (unless you want to delve into making sounds through feedback or whatever). However, I would argue that that isn't really a fair interpretation of the phrase.

I'm not upgrading to Live 6 because I don't see the value in it for me. The big new feature IMO is dual-core optimization, but that doesn't help my Pentium M.

As a counterpoint to Live, Project 5: although a CPU hog, it's less than half the price, it includes alot of nice VA and ROMpler sounds, it somehow sounds better overall, and most importantly from my perspective, I can bust out dance patterns quicker on it.

Cakewalk has said that a major upgrade to P5 is due in the early stages of next year and that it will be free of charge. Now that's some counter cash-cow action if I ever saw it.

I've always liked Cakewalk as a company, and that's another reason why.

jngpng wrote:

b0unce wrote:
I have some issues with ableton's business/marketing methods. I dont understand how they could market live 5 as 'a complete music production tool' ...without providing a synth.


That doesn't make any sense though! Why should a 'complete music production tool' include a synth? Ableton are no more obliged to include a free synth than they are a free banjo, tuba or whatever. You can make music in Ableton without a built-in synth, just like you can make music in Ableton without a built-in mandolin.

Of course, if you are taking "complete music production tool' to mean that you can make complete tracks in Live without recording anything or using outside samples, then you are right (unless you want to delve into making sounds through feedback or whatever). However, I would argue that that isn't really a fair interpretation of the phrase.

well firstly, it was the phrase plus the website marketing at the time that led me to the conclusion that operator was INCLUDED (not free - people who say ableton comes with free effects are stupid I reckon - or forget the fact they did actually pay for it - I *might* agree with that use of the word 'free' if you could use the effects in other packages - but come on, if you paid for something you didnt get it free, it was included in the price mang)

they had pages boasting about all of lives functions, with 'complete music production tool' being the phrase on every page....going through the tour it talked about operator without highlighting it wasnt included - of course it was obvious if you already knew, or if you visited the appropriate page where you could buy an operator serial - but regarding the main marketing spiel it wasnt highlighted at all - but they did talk about operator being seamlessly integrated. if you didnt already know, I think it was an easy mistake to make. I didnt check out the forums before dropping the dough, doh!

of course no one is obliged to include a software synth with anything, but in this day-and-age , to market a music producing package as complete, without even one method of making your own original sounds (aka a synth of some sort, not using pre-fab samples) is disengenuous....imo

reason, logic, umm..what other packages are there ?, sonar ...I dont even know if they market themselves as the 'complete music production tool' - but I believe they provide synths......list a few 'complete music production' packages and tell me how many dont come with a single synth

you're right , this is what I think:
--Of course, if you are taking "complete music production tool' to mean that you can make complete tracks in Live without recording anything or using outside samples, then you are right (unless you want to delve into making sounds through feedback or whatever). However, I would argue that that isn't really a fair interpretation of the phrase.--

really, you dont think taking the meaning of each word in the phrase should be rigid ? seriously, calling it complete without a synth is deceptive when you take everything into account [a] the marketing hype which didnt talk about the extra cost for operator, the seamlessly integrated synth [b] how 90% of all the other popular production packages come with a synth - I think interpretating 'complete music production tool' as one that includes a synth is fair enough.


and just to re-iterate, theres nothing free about ableton live. where would you stop with that logic ? in essence then ableton live in its entirety is free, cos you only paid for a serial number and/or a box.

i think the real issue is that complete music production package implies that you don't need anything EXTERNAL to the program to make music -- which, if that's how most people interpret the wording, IS deceptive since to make sound you would need something external to the program -- whether it be a sample or a synth etc. of course, i think live comes with samples, doesn't it? so maybe they meant it in that sense. but that's still somewhat limiting to creating a creation that is completely your own -- i.e. no external inputs, just building a track from the ground up starting from zero.

although, the latter statement opens a pandora's box about whether starting with a sample means that the music you create can truly be your own. but i didn't mean to muddy the waters -- just that i can see where bounce is coming from, but also where jnpng is coming from as well. i think at this point the majority of people expect a saw sequencer/audio multitracker to come standard with at least ONE synth/noisemaker (be it a virtual ____).

-M

papertiger wrote:
but that's how all software "manufacturers" work -- charge for upgrades every X often. ain't nothing for free my son -- even when the so-called upgrades fix sh*t that should have worked, and the company claimed DID work, in the first place (ableton, cubase, I'm looking in your directiooon).

M

logic dont do it, hell logic has been on version 7.x since i started using live 4, maybe even before that - but thats when I started so I remember that. and logic is a seriously professional product, with dope samplers and synths, and fantastic midi editing ...... and ableton want the same kind of money, with less to offer.

meh, I use ableton's session view and nothing else really, I was struggling with some the versions of fruityloops & logic I was using on a housemate's computer for what I wanted to do...and the session view sucked me right in and propelled me right up the learning curve much faster then I was moving with the other programs...so I'm grateful for that....but now I know much more then I did then , and the honeymoon is over now.... and I dont like the ratio of how-much-money-they-are-looking-for-these-days to [a] stability [b] functionality


I got a dual core, so I'm gonna spring for the upgrade.

as i just got logic express a few months ago, i am interested to see if your theory or observations re: the logic upgrade pattern holds up. that would be tremendously awesome, but you'll forgive my cynicism. i think i've finally reached the point where if it ain't broke, i'm not gonna pay to fix it. learned my lesson with sx. stay a few versions behind and you should be alright.

-M

I do miss using Logic sometimes.. and sometimes not. I have Logic 4 for the PC. The only reason I got into Live and P5 is because Apple screwed me over.

Emagic did upgrades up through 4.8 that were all free, and there were some nice features added during that version.

So if Apple Logic is anything like Emagic Logic (pun intended), they'll give you a few freebies as the current version matures, but will make you pay to get the next level.